"On the couch, fully dressed, now hearing the stirring downstairs. There is no ‘taking’ of Ilsa. Tyler issues a delusion."
That's what I thought! And that's what I told him! :-)
Then I watched the film very closely, from beginning to end. Tyler's not deluded. He presumes something that is very *plausible*...though that doesn't necessarily …
"On the couch, fully dressed, now hearing the stirring downstairs. There is no ‘taking’ of Ilsa. Tyler issues a delusion."
That's what I thought! And that's what I told him! :-)
Then I watched the film very closely, from beginning to end. Tyler's not deluded. He presumes something that is very *plausible*...though that doesn't necessarily mean Tyler is correct.
Where I *think* Tyler is saying that Rick made love to Ilsa was here...when Ilsa protests, "Rick, if you only knew how much I loved you...how much I *still* love you!"...and they kiss passionately:
Then we have a truly bizarre cutaway to show the outside of a building...the hotel? Rick is gazing out a window, and turns to Ilsa, sitting on the couch, and says, "And then?"
...then Ilsa gives the "Big Reveal," wherein she explains that she was married to Victor Laszlo, but thought he'd died in a concentration camp, months before she met Rick in Paris. She further tells Rick that she didn't tell Rick about her marriage to Victor Laszlo, because Victor *wanted* her to keep the marriage secret, because she knew so much about his work, such as who he was working with.
The thing is that they're both dressed to the nines, in their Sunday finest, both before and after their passionate kiss. (You'd expect that Rick would at least have removed his tie...or at least loosened it a bit. ;-))
*But*...on the other hand...Ilsa met Rick in his living quarters literally as Carl was walking to "the Meeting." (Carl hilariously tells Rick words to the effect of, "I have to close up now, and go to the meeting..." and Rick responds, "Don't tell me where you're going!" And Carl says quietly, "OK, I won't tell you where I'm going." ;-))
Rick then goes up the stairs exactly as Carl is leaving, and meets Ilsa, who has come up to Rick's living quarters by the back stairs.
Further, the end of the "big Reveal," and Ilsa's desperate request that Rick think for both of them, comes right as Victor is coming back, wounded, from the Meeting. (Which was apparently broken up by the Nazis.)
So we really don't know exactly how long Rick and Ilsa have been in Rick's quarters. It could have been several hours. It could have been only 20 minutes or so. It all depends on how quickly the Nazis broke up the meeting, which isn't described.
Yes, great, Mark. You are right about the possibility of a quicky during that cut-away (something I did not have in view when I wrote of Tyler's "sleep with her" claim), and nice job on sleuthing out how we do not know how long the in-between time was. But with all that, I think it is pretty preposterous to think they made love then. Besides being dressed to the nines, as you remark, it would be rather absurd, implausible, character-wise and situation-wise. Mind you, it is hard to believe that the things that Ilsa tells Rick after the cut-away, both (still? again?) dressed to nines, would have been deferred to after a quicky. What she said is the core explanation for the most important conduct in her entire history of her Paris affair with Rick; it is urgent. With Rick, after the kiss, making up, it is the very first thing she would want to explain to Rick, and that Rick would be keen to learn. I don't mind that the film allowed for the ambiguity about it, however.
"On the couch, fully dressed, now hearing the stirring downstairs. There is no ‘taking’ of Ilsa. Tyler issues a delusion."
That's what I thought! And that's what I told him! :-)
Then I watched the film very closely, from beginning to end. Tyler's not deluded. He presumes something that is very *plausible*...though that doesn't necessarily mean Tyler is correct.
Where I *think* Tyler is saying that Rick made love to Ilsa was here...when Ilsa protests, "Rick, if you only knew how much I loved you...how much I *still* love you!"...and they kiss passionately:
https://youtu.be/wjkahnFVLbA
Then we have a truly bizarre cutaway to show the outside of a building...the hotel? Rick is gazing out a window, and turns to Ilsa, sitting on the couch, and says, "And then?"
...then Ilsa gives the "Big Reveal," wherein she explains that she was married to Victor Laszlo, but thought he'd died in a concentration camp, months before she met Rick in Paris. She further tells Rick that she didn't tell Rick about her marriage to Victor Laszlo, because Victor *wanted* her to keep the marriage secret, because she knew so much about his work, such as who he was working with.
The thing is that they're both dressed to the nines, in their Sunday finest, both before and after their passionate kiss. (You'd expect that Rick would at least have removed his tie...or at least loosened it a bit. ;-))
*But*...on the other hand...Ilsa met Rick in his living quarters literally as Carl was walking to "the Meeting." (Carl hilariously tells Rick words to the effect of, "I have to close up now, and go to the meeting..." and Rick responds, "Don't tell me where you're going!" And Carl says quietly, "OK, I won't tell you where I'm going." ;-))
Rick then goes up the stairs exactly as Carl is leaving, and meets Ilsa, who has come up to Rick's living quarters by the back stairs.
Further, the end of the "big Reveal," and Ilsa's desperate request that Rick think for both of them, comes right as Victor is coming back, wounded, from the Meeting. (Which was apparently broken up by the Nazis.)
So we really don't know exactly how long Rick and Ilsa have been in Rick's quarters. It could have been several hours. It could have been only 20 minutes or so. It all depends on how quickly the Nazis broke up the meeting, which isn't described.
Yes, great, Mark. You are right about the possibility of a quicky during that cut-away (something I did not have in view when I wrote of Tyler's "sleep with her" claim), and nice job on sleuthing out how we do not know how long the in-between time was. But with all that, I think it is pretty preposterous to think they made love then. Besides being dressed to the nines, as you remark, it would be rather absurd, implausible, character-wise and situation-wise. Mind you, it is hard to believe that the things that Ilsa tells Rick after the cut-away, both (still? again?) dressed to nines, would have been deferred to after a quicky. What she said is the core explanation for the most important conduct in her entire history of her Paris affair with Rick; it is urgent. With Rick, after the kiss, making up, it is the very first thing she would want to explain to Rick, and that Rick would be keen to learn. I don't mind that the film allowed for the ambiguity about it, however.