There's a book by Simon Murray, Leggionare, about his time in the French Foreign Legion during the 60s attempted coup on GeGaulle, also The Centurions (forgot the authors name, but worth looking up if interested). One of the most fascinating events of modern history, where the generation of soldiers who lost during World War 2, suffered defeat in Indochina (Vietnam), and then sent to Algeria, these soldiers finally found in the pied noires (French Algerians - they had been there by this time, in some cases, since the 1830s - over 130 years) people they would literally not surrender. So, they got an Air Force General on board, attacked an airfield and attempted an air drop on Paris to depose DeGalle when he ordered them home.
In otherwords, there's a *lot* of juicy history for those interested here. Worth reading into if you're a history nerd like me.
And I don't know if this is total fiction, but a great fictional work is Day of the Jackal. Movie is very good. Novel is great. It's about the assassination attempt by people pissed off at De Gaulle's pullout from Algeria.
Day of the Jackal IS great entertainment, but more atmospheric than historical. Brings history to life, but not that much of it - and a lot of minor fiction.
Yup. What I found interesting is that, until he started murdering, I was torn between wanting the jackal to succeed and wanting the detective to succeed. Emotionally torn. Intellectually, I wanted the jackal to fail.
OAS, roughly "The Secret Organization", was a real group of French who continued terrorist attacks in Algiers after the government left in the 60s. The whole affair is still interesting as a pre-lude to modern international affairs- the "right to self determination" and Democracy still haunts us.
Hamas was democratically elected, so was Hitler, and Greek and American democracies supported slavery. Clearly, to me, there is absolutely zero intrinsically "good" about Democracy. Rights, however, *are* a moral principle necessary for a modern Capitalist, free society.
It is such a muddle today, that we have students protesting on behalf of terrorist Islamists "right" to impose Sharia law and theocracy on people; as if is a "good" tyranny is you manage to get 51% of voters to support it.
The American Revolution was a years long slaughter chiefly caused by elites who were sick of paying taxes. Their moral justification for starting the war was exceptionally thin, certainly not strong enough to justify what would follow.
Consequentialists love to justify wars based on outcomes. But outcomes aren’t predictable, and most wars cause immense suffering of innocents for dubious or no benefit.
The French partisans had a very strong argument for fighting the Nazis as the Nazis were busy slaughtering the conquered and destroying their own homeland in the service of deranged and perverted ideals—and it’s not like the partisans laying down their arms would have stopped the ongoing war!
The history of rebellions, uprsings, revolutions, whatever. taking up arms and fight "the establishment" (government by another name) seems to always care when people see little or no hope of itheir lot improving and would as soon die while killing as many of their "enemies as they can. And some peoples never get to that point, no matter how bad it is, or believe themselves for whatever reason to be unable to even do that.
Get 15% of the population into the right mood and you have armed conflict.
The Americans weren't fighting for "self determination". They were fighting for the rights explained in the Declaration and Common Sense. *Individual Rights* and yes, property rights are clearly a part of that.
Britain was the freest country on Earth in 1777 - but the Americans could, and did, envision a better society.
Although I would say the American Revolution was a good deal, I can't help but notice that you don't include the French Revolution(s) in your lists. Those would seem to be rather strong counter examples, enough to make one think that one should have really strong reasons to believe the outcomes will be worth it before starting revolution, because things can easily get much, much worse.
The American revolution inspired other democratic revolutions throughout the world and gave us a global mostly liberal democratic order (for a while at least). Of course, there was no way to know that in advance. But fighting for hope rather than a certain outcome (which is never offered) can be heroic.
There's a book by Simon Murray, Leggionare, about his time in the French Foreign Legion during the 60s attempted coup on GeGaulle, also The Centurions (forgot the authors name, but worth looking up if interested). One of the most fascinating events of modern history, where the generation of soldiers who lost during World War 2, suffered defeat in Indochina (Vietnam), and then sent to Algeria, these soldiers finally found in the pied noires (French Algerians - they had been there by this time, in some cases, since the 1830s - over 130 years) people they would literally not surrender. So, they got an Air Force General on board, attacked an airfield and attempted an air drop on Paris to depose DeGalle when he ordered them home.
In otherwords, there's a *lot* of juicy history for those interested here. Worth reading into if you're a history nerd like me.
And I don't know if this is total fiction, but a great fictional work is Day of the Jackal. Movie is very good. Novel is great. It's about the assassination attempt by people pissed off at De Gaulle's pullout from Algeria.
Day of the Jackal IS great entertainment, but more atmospheric than historical. Brings history to life, but not that much of it - and a lot of minor fiction.
Yup. What I found interesting is that, until he started murdering, I was torn between wanting the jackal to succeed and wanting the detective to succeed. Emotionally torn. Intellectually, I wanted the jackal to fail.
OAS, roughly "The Secret Organization", was a real group of French who continued terrorist attacks in Algiers after the government left in the 60s. The whole affair is still interesting as a pre-lude to modern international affairs- the "right to self determination" and Democracy still haunts us.
Hamas was democratically elected, so was Hitler, and Greek and American democracies supported slavery. Clearly, to me, there is absolutely zero intrinsically "good" about Democracy. Rights, however, *are* a moral principle necessary for a modern Capitalist, free society.
It is such a muddle today, that we have students protesting on behalf of terrorist Islamists "right" to impose Sharia law and theocracy on people; as if is a "good" tyranny is you manage to get 51% of voters to support it.
the American Patriots shouldn't have fought to free themselves of British rule. Would that have been a better world?
French partisans shouldn't have fought against the Nazi occupiers?
Czechs, Hungarians, Poles shouldn't have fought to free themselves from Russia and before that Austria?
This logic makes sense in some cases, maybe, but it seems to take a one size fits all stance that doesn't fit in many cases.
The American Revolution was a years long slaughter chiefly caused by elites who were sick of paying taxes. Their moral justification for starting the war was exceptionally thin, certainly not strong enough to justify what would follow.
Consequentialists love to justify wars based on outcomes. But outcomes aren’t predictable, and most wars cause immense suffering of innocents for dubious or no benefit.
The French partisans had a very strong argument for fighting the Nazis as the Nazis were busy slaughtering the conquered and destroying their own homeland in the service of deranged and perverted ideals—and it’s not like the partisans laying down their arms would have stopped the ongoing war!
Amazing how the elites got so many non-elites to fight, frequently with little pay. To be so reductionist is simplistic and naive.
The history of rebellions, uprsings, revolutions, whatever. taking up arms and fight "the establishment" (government by another name) seems to always care when people see little or no hope of itheir lot improving and would as soon die while killing as many of their "enemies as they can. And some peoples never get to that point, no matter how bad it is, or believe themselves for whatever reason to be unable to even do that.
Get 15% of the population into the right mood and you have armed conflict.
The Americans weren't fighting for "self determination". They were fighting for the rights explained in the Declaration and Common Sense. *Individual Rights* and yes, property rights are clearly a part of that.
Britain was the freest country on Earth in 1777 - but the Americans could, and did, envision a better society.
Although I would say the American Revolution was a good deal, I can't help but notice that you don't include the French Revolution(s) in your lists. Those would seem to be rather strong counter examples, enough to make one think that one should have really strong reasons to believe the outcomes will be worth it before starting revolution, because things can easily get much, much worse.
They SHOULD NOT have. It WOULD have been a better world (and not just for Brits and Indians).
I'm actually quite interested in revolutionary movements in general, and anti-colonial struggles in particular. I agree with everything you said here.
https://open.substack.com/pub/jmpolemic/p/the-fruits-of-the-revolution?r=1neg52&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true
The American revolution inspired other democratic revolutions throughout the world and gave us a global mostly liberal democratic order (for a while at least). Of course, there was no way to know that in advance. But fighting for hope rather than a certain outcome (which is never offered) can be heroic.